Zora Burden: What initially gave you the idea for the book?
Rivka Solomon: Well, I had a party one night and during the evening a man told a story about a woman who had done something brazen. Afterwards I casually remarked, "Well, that took ovaries." Everyone in the room burst out laughing, exclaiming "Great phrase!" I'd used the saying often around my buddies in the past and got nods, grins, or amen to that. This time, I saw its power. I thought the phrase was not just fun and funny, it challenged the myth of the passive female and that made it political. Even more, the phrase reflected a key sentiment behind the latest rising wave of young feminists like the Guerilla Girls, Riot Grrrls, Third Wave feminism, and girls' movements, the attitude of playful brazenness in the push for gender equality. I decided that takes ovaries would make a great book title and wanted to assemble a collection of ovarian acts where women and girls take charge and maybe even have fun. I hoped my book would be a platform for girls' vibrant voices and a celebration of womanly resilience. I envisioned a book that would excite women and men of all ages, who want to see their sisters, mothers, grandmothers, aunts, and friends - leading empowered lives. That mothers and fathers who care about their daughters growing up self-assured and confident and girls would be eager to be a part of the growing "girl power" movement. That Takes Ovaries! would be for everyone interested in challenging a culture still wrought with inequality and double standards. Besides the book, I and am doing the open mike nights because I want to encourage women and girls to lead bold lives and be risk-takers who would be more likely to stand up for themselves and for others, especially against injustices. You have to be a risk-taker to do that. I compiled and edited this book for one real reason. This book is about risk takers, women and girls who have pushed the boundaries, jumped over barriers, sailed around obstacles, often having fun while they did those things, often standing up for their own or others rights as they did those things. And, basically, I wanted to encourage that.
ZB: Was the need to hear other’s stories therapeutic for you and a form of support?
RS: Originally, I did not set out to use the stories as a therapeutic form of support. I just thought it would be fun. You know, how totally cool to get hundreds of stories from women and girls about the gutsy, bold, audacious, outrageous things they have done! I get a real kick out of seeing a woman, any woman, being bold. I mean, isn't it a rush to see a little girl walk into a room full of people and take charge? Or witness a teenaged girl take on some outrageous risk, and pull it off? It is just exciting to be around that stuff. In the end, getting and reading the stories that came in was a real charge! A great boost! I wanted to celebrate female risk takers in a wide range of activities; in the world of work, in the world of playing and having fun, in the home, on the streets. I wanted to affirm women and girls who are already risk takers in their lives and I wanted to encourage others, readers who might not live their lives that way, to take the bold new step of being a risk taker. I wrote this book because courage is infectious. I thought that if some reader who might not be living such a bold life now saw how another girl does something gutsy; like grabs the hand of a child molester groping her butt or tracks down wild gorillas in Africa, two totally different stories in the book, then she might think, "Hey, if that woman can do something so outrageous, so adventurous, so courageous, then so can I!" So in short, I wrote this book because I wanted to celebrate the fun, bold things women do, and also I wanted to do whatever I could to encourage even more women and girls to be risk takers.
ZB: How long did it take you to create the book itself?
RS: It took four and a half years from inception to publication. It took that long because I spent at least half of that time bedridden, too sick to function. I have either Chronic Fatigue Syndrome or Chronic Lyme Disease, depending on which doctor I see. The two illnesses have near identical symptoms: intense debilitating exhaustion, brain fog and a whole lot of other symptoms.
ZB: How exactly did you go about the process of finding the participants and then deciding on whose stories would be included?
RS: The day after my party where I had decided to compile the stories for this book, I whipped up a call for stories. I e-mailed the notice to friends and a few in e-mail discussion groups. It read:
That Takes Ovaries!
Seeking submissions of anything YOU have *ever* done—little or big—that was gutsy or audacious. It can be playful, serious, spontaneous, calculated, smart, sexy, and/or an example of leadership. Something that, when you think about it today, makes you nod your head with *pride,* or even semi-disbelief, and think, "Wow! I did that!"
Soon my e-mail in-box was full. Not only with cool, gutsy-gal submissions, but also with notes from women and men around the country saying they loved the idea of the book and asking when they could they buy it? Apparently, the phrase had struck a chord. When women got the e-notice they were so excited they promptly sent it to their girlfriends. My call for stories became a popular forwarding item. Before long I was seeing it sent back to me via a number of women's e-newsletters to which I subscribed but had not sent the notice. In the end, three hundred stories came in and thousands of women on the web considered, at least for a moment, their own bravery and brazenness. I choose the stories based on the diversity of the gutsy acts, diversity of ethnic, racial, cultural background, age, geographic location, etc.
ZB: Was this an overwhelming endeavor? How did you find the strength, especially with the struggle of your illnesses?
RS: It was overwhelming only because I was so sick all the time. I have no idea where I found the strength. Often, I did not find the strength and I worked on the book even while too sick to really work on it at all. And other times, I was unable to work on it for months and months at a time.
ZB: Will you talk about the illnesses you had to overcome while creating the book? How did the open mike version develop?
RS: Despite a devastating disability, I wrote this book and began an international Ovaries! open mike movement though having spent much of the past decade bedridden or housebound and I still am. It’s a very debilitating illness, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS) or Chronic Lyme Disease, depending on which doctor you talk to. When I got sick, I had to leave my career in international politics and crawl into bed, too weak to function. This went on for years, but I did not give up. I taught myself to be a writer, got a book contract with one of the largest publishers in the country and spent almost five years collecting stories, writing and publishing this book, all while being tethered to my bed. Often, I was so sick I could not function for days, weeks, even months at a time. I came close to quitting many times, especially when I developed a second disability, Repetitive Strain Injury. I could not hold a toothbrush or a telephone, let alone type. I could not type for almost a year the same year I was under contract to finish this book! Solution? I found 6 young women assistants and volunteers who came to my home to type with me, for me, as we sat together at the computer for 1-3 hours, until I was ready to collapse with exhaustion from my CFS and crawl back to bed. This is how That Takes Ovaries! was written. I still suffer from this same illness today, 17 years after contracting it. I came up with the idea of the community-based open mikes in part because I knew I could not do a usual author book tour.
ZB: Has this affected your perspective on real vulnerability and defenselessness as opposed to learned victimization and passivity in women?
RS: My illness makes everything hard because I'm always deeply, down-to-my-bones exhausted, and sleep does not make the exhaustion go away. That is where my real struggle is, with the illness I have. And it is true that when you are physically exhausted all the time, it does make you feel weaker or more vulnerable emotionally. Sometimes I see something that a woman with ovaries would do, and I just can't be bothered, I'm too sick and have to crawl into bed. I spend way too much time stuck in, or tethered to, my bed. We can all be bold, no matter if we are weak physically or emotionally, whether we learned it growing up in a sexist society or became that way from a debilitating illness. We all have opportunities to act boldly each and every day! That is how I see things.
ZB: Do you get frustrated by how much women are seen as the weaker sex or victims in our culture?
RS: I most certainly do not see women as victims but we do, however, live in a sexist society that portrays women as victims; in our mass media, in our TV shows, movies, etc, the victimization of women is made into entertainment. And it is hard not to internalize that message. That is what "internalized oppression" is: if you hear often enough that you are the weaker of the sexes, you begin to believe it.
ZB: Do you see overcoming the challenge of your disability as form of empowerment?
RS: In general, I think that in many cases disabilities can be a blessing in this respect: I have friends with disabilities who have told me this about their own disabilities and how those disabilities spurred them into activism and becoming disability rights activists. But in my case, I think I would have rather spent my time organizing women even more, instead of being bedridden and too sick to either write or organize.
ZB: Can you give examples of reactions to your book, both negative and positive?
RS: I get emails all the time from women who say that they found the stories in the book and play or shared at an open mike nights inspiring. That they have rediscovered their ovaries after reading the book. These emails come from girls as young as 14 and women as old as 60. The only negative comments I get are the questions about what if women have had their ovaries removed or are transgendered? I say that the book is not about literal ovaries, it is not about anatomy, it is about attitude.
ZB: Who was your target audience for the book?
RS: I hoped my book, the play and the open mike movement could add to those books and plays already coming out that are a platform for girls' vibrant voices and a celebration of womanly resilience. I envisioned a book, play and open mike movement that would excite women and men of all ages who want to see their sisters, mothers, grandmothers, aunts, and friends leading empowered lives; mothers and fathers who care about their daughters growing up self-assured and confident; and girls eager to be a part of the growing "girl power" movement. That Takes Ovaries! would be for everyone interested in challenging a culture still wrought with inequality and double standards, everyone hungry for unabashedly powerful females.
ZB: Do you have males reading the book or attending the open mike shows?
RS: Yes, men and boys attend all our events. Out of over 300 events to date, only one was women-only. We welcome men and boys because at our events, they can share stories (brag) about the ovaries in their lives, like their sisters, mothers and daughters. And they do. Men will get up and proudly talk about their singles mom's who raised them, their sisters who have graduated with honors from high school, etc. For many women, it is the first time they have hear a man publicly praise women's strength. This is a transformative thing for men and women to witness.
ZB: Have any boys contacted you, who don't identify with typical male characteristics, and told you their stories of overcoming, say, bias against effeminate males or gay males?
RS: Sometimes men get up at our events and instead of sharing about an ovary in their life, they share about their own bold acts, this is not what they are supposed to do, but we don't stop them from doing it. They sometimes talk about how they have been oppressed or hurt and how they have overcome it. I don't recall this particular topic coming up though (gay oppression). However, many gay men have told me how much they support our work at TTOvaries.
ZB: Are you often asked for advice on how to deal with certain situations by girls? Do you find you get equal inquiries from all generations?
RS: Interestingly enough, folks don't ask for advice a lot. Rather they tell me their stories of success and of standing up for themselves. Sometimes young women ask me about ‘how to be bold’ and I do sometimes cover that in my talk or lecture that I give when I go to campuses. One of my talks How To Lead a Bold Life included topics like, how to seek out role models, that any small act of bravery leads to bigger ones, make a decision to act through and in spite of your fears, come up with concrete steps you can take that lead to a bold life. An important issue is to ask what current laws have become outdated that may allow or worse enable abusive or harassing behavior by males towards women, which resulted in measures of retaliation or vigilantism by women. What laws should be re-evaluated and changed?
ZB: What new laws do you feel might help aid with creating a safer environment for women, whether it is in the education system or at the work place, etc?
RS: I think we need more laws and programs and policies that enable safe and easy access to birth control and abortion, free or cheap child care, free or cheap health care, more low-income housing, more awareness programs for men about sexual harassment and abuse. I am not sure we need new laws for all these things, but in short, women are still struggling for the right to live without violence, walk down the street at night & live without fear of being assaulted, to not be hit by our partner , beaten by our boyfriend, have equal representation in their political institutions and in businesses, receive equal pay for their work, to be able to enjoy the mass media (movies, comedy, music videos) without being bombarded with hyper sexualized images of women, or images that constantly portray women as victims. We need to be aware of how many women are mayors of cities? In the U.S. Senate? How many women own businesses? How many women are in leadership positions in the top corporations of our country, superintendents of schools, presidents of hospitals? How many women are running colleges? How many women are film directors? How many women are in truly equal relationships with men? Most are taking care of the home and children, working twice as much in the family as men do. Also, internationally, in many countries, the situation is much worse and many of these things do need to be addresses with laws and government enforced policies like how women are second-class citizens with little or no power and often no control over their lives, they have no access to condoms which can save their lives (HIV/AIDS), no access to birth control, no access to abortions, no ability/agency to say no to sex, acid attacks, FGM, honor-crime killings, rape as an instrument of war, forced marriages at very young ages, sexual slavery, forced prostitution
the list goes on..
ZB: How do you see this expression with the play and open mike night progressing? What would the ideal end results be?
RS: The end result we are after is the liberation of all females. TTO seeks the liberation of all women and girls, irrespective of social and economic status. It is a grand vision, but one we must envision and say out loud in order to strategize and actualize it. TTO wants every woman and girl to be free to live her life to her fullest potential without having to adhere to antiquated social norms that limit her in any way, and without having to live her life in fear of intimidation, violence or oppression. Girls are born self-assured and bold. It is not chromosomes that make many girls shy about speaking up in class, hesitant to dive into competitive sports, or tolerant of street harassment. It's not due to genetic makeup that women are less likely to run for political office, climb the corporate ladder, or attain equality, whether equal pay on the job or equal attention in the bedroom. It's not nature; it's nurture. Internalized social messages and conditioning by a sexist, often violent society are what contribute to any female suppressing her naturally confident, daring self and replacing it with less risk-taking, less space-taking behavior.
From girlhood, women are trained to step lightly, downplay their abilities and not express their needs, even though being assertive, drawing boundaries and speaking up are the skills that help women most, whether it's advancing her career or ensuring her physical safety. This has devastating consequences: Women are less likely to run for political office, rise to leadership positions in the business community and receive equal pay for equal work. One in three women will be physically or sexually abused in her lifetime. In the U.S., a woman is beaten every 15 seconds and one is raped every 90 seconds. Would this happen if women felt their power, spoke up and fought back? Not likely. The need for female empowerment is urgent. It's time to deprogram. It's time to reject all that keeps a woman quiet or unsure. What femininity needs is a boost of bravado. Fortunately, role models abound. Examples of resistance, bravery, and breaking-the-mold behavior can be found in every female. The book is a celebration of ourselves, girls and women speaking in their own words about their own bold actions. Sharing our true stories is inspiring because courage is contagious, both within a person and between people. We at TTO want these ripples to turn into a wave, a wave of personal and societal change.
ZB: Many of these events are fundraisers for human rights, fighting against abuse and oppression worldwide. Can you give some examples of what That Takes Ovaries has achieved?
RS: We have held over 300 events to date around the globe. Many events raise money, but not large sums of money. Often just a few hundred dollars, sometimes a few thousand dollars. Sometimes all that is raised are toiletries for a local battered women's shelter.
ZB: In your opinion, what is the single most courageous act a female can do for herself? How far should one go to accomplish this?
RS: She can stand up for herself and others if she is or others are being hurt, abused, discriminated against or somehow oppressed. That is the most courageous thing she can do. How far should one go to accomplish this? She must use her own judgment, but it is best if no one would be hurt in her process of standing up for herself and others, unless that person is hurting others and needs to be hurt in order to stop him from hurting others.
ZB: Will you describe some participants of your events, who've fully embraced the life of activism and made changes on either a small or large scale?
RS: We have had a number of women who have never organized any events before and after organizing a TTO event, they end up organizing other events for women's voices and women's causes. That is a delight to see!
ZB: How do you address gender stereotypes when talking about feminism and female empowerment?
RS: This is an important reason why I support the Trans, transgendered, movement and the rejection of all gender-based stereotypes; in fact, I call gender stereotypes gender straitjackets. They force boys and girls into rigid roles how they are supposed to behave. How limiting can you get? How can a woman or female identified person empower herself without using gender stereotypes? She can empower herself simply by standing up for herself and others, and not buying into any limits that are externally imposed and not buying into any limits that she may have internalized due to a sexist, racist, class-ist, able-ist, and ageist society.
ZB: For thousands of women around the world, your book is an act of heroism and through this work, you yourself are a hero(ine). Do you have any personal heroines of your own? Any strong women who inspired you before you created That Takes Ovaries?
RS: Every women and girl is my hero! Really, that is what TTO is all about: We are all role models for each other. There may be one area in my life in which I have not bought into the oppression, and for that reason I may be a role model for you in that area. But you may not have bought into the oppression in another area, and for that reason you are a role model for me in that area. But, specifically my personal role models in the fight for social change include Gloria Steinem, Barbara Jordan, Bella Abzug, Harriet Tubman, Shirley Chisholm, Fannie Lou Haymer, Cesar Chavez, Martin Luther King Jr., Gandhi, and of course my Grandma Claire, my Mom and Dad. There was also Sojourner Truth, the tall Black woman who spoke so dynamically about Black women's rights, especially in her "Ain't I a Woman" speech. There was Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton, the tireless pioneers and national organizers of the first wave of the women's movement, the one that won women the right to vote. There was the extraordinarily brave Harriet Tubman, a former slave who made numerous trips from the south to the north to help other Blacks gain their freedom using the underground railroad. And then there was the persistent Elizabeth Blackwell, the first American woman to get a medical degree. I think she applied to fifteen medical schools before she was finally accepted to one. All of these women fought hard for their rights, for all women's rights. None of these women took "no" for an answer. They were my role models.
ZB: What would be the farthest you'd personally go to right a wrong, in the name of equality?
RS: I have risked physical harm to right a wrong. That is, I have stood in between an angry, seemingly-violent man and the woman he was targeting. I did this once. And I have verbally stood up to bullies many times.
ZB: How do you define courage?
RS: I wrote this book and play, started an open mike movement, because courage is contagious and risk-taking is infectious. I wanted audiences to think, "Hey, if that woman can do something so outrageous, so courageous, then maybe so can I". Women and girls are transformed when they begin to reframe what it means to be courageous so that they now see the ways they are already acting courageously, take pride in being female, and get affirmation for being a female who acts boldly, step through fear to speak in public for the first time, step through fear to organize an event for the first time, men are transformed when they recognize women's strength and brag about it. They gain a deeper level of respect for females when they hear about female's hardships and ability to overcome them. There are different types of courage and boldness. Not all courage is in-your-face and political. There is a spectrum of types of courage, from loud and noisy and rambunctious to soft, quiet, steady tenaciousness. There are so many types of courage: Spontaneous Courage, Well Thought Out Courage, Individual Courage, Group Courage, Physical Courage, Emotional Courage, Standing up for yourself Courage, Helping Others Courage. Courage has a transformative effect!
Conducted in 2003
Rivka Solomon: Well, I had a party one night and during the evening a man told a story about a woman who had done something brazen. Afterwards I casually remarked, "Well, that took ovaries." Everyone in the room burst out laughing, exclaiming "Great phrase!" I'd used the saying often around my buddies in the past and got nods, grins, or amen to that. This time, I saw its power. I thought the phrase was not just fun and funny, it challenged the myth of the passive female and that made it political. Even more, the phrase reflected a key sentiment behind the latest rising wave of young feminists like the Guerilla Girls, Riot Grrrls, Third Wave feminism, and girls' movements, the attitude of playful brazenness in the push for gender equality. I decided that takes ovaries would make a great book title and wanted to assemble a collection of ovarian acts where women and girls take charge and maybe even have fun. I hoped my book would be a platform for girls' vibrant voices and a celebration of womanly resilience. I envisioned a book that would excite women and men of all ages, who want to see their sisters, mothers, grandmothers, aunts, and friends - leading empowered lives. That mothers and fathers who care about their daughters growing up self-assured and confident and girls would be eager to be a part of the growing "girl power" movement. That Takes Ovaries! would be for everyone interested in challenging a culture still wrought with inequality and double standards. Besides the book, I and am doing the open mike nights because I want to encourage women and girls to lead bold lives and be risk-takers who would be more likely to stand up for themselves and for others, especially against injustices. You have to be a risk-taker to do that. I compiled and edited this book for one real reason. This book is about risk takers, women and girls who have pushed the boundaries, jumped over barriers, sailed around obstacles, often having fun while they did those things, often standing up for their own or others rights as they did those things. And, basically, I wanted to encourage that.
ZB: Was the need to hear other’s stories therapeutic for you and a form of support?
RS: Originally, I did not set out to use the stories as a therapeutic form of support. I just thought it would be fun. You know, how totally cool to get hundreds of stories from women and girls about the gutsy, bold, audacious, outrageous things they have done! I get a real kick out of seeing a woman, any woman, being bold. I mean, isn't it a rush to see a little girl walk into a room full of people and take charge? Or witness a teenaged girl take on some outrageous risk, and pull it off? It is just exciting to be around that stuff. In the end, getting and reading the stories that came in was a real charge! A great boost! I wanted to celebrate female risk takers in a wide range of activities; in the world of work, in the world of playing and having fun, in the home, on the streets. I wanted to affirm women and girls who are already risk takers in their lives and I wanted to encourage others, readers who might not live their lives that way, to take the bold new step of being a risk taker. I wrote this book because courage is infectious. I thought that if some reader who might not be living such a bold life now saw how another girl does something gutsy; like grabs the hand of a child molester groping her butt or tracks down wild gorillas in Africa, two totally different stories in the book, then she might think, "Hey, if that woman can do something so outrageous, so adventurous, so courageous, then so can I!" So in short, I wrote this book because I wanted to celebrate the fun, bold things women do, and also I wanted to do whatever I could to encourage even more women and girls to be risk takers.
ZB: How long did it take you to create the book itself?
RS: It took four and a half years from inception to publication. It took that long because I spent at least half of that time bedridden, too sick to function. I have either Chronic Fatigue Syndrome or Chronic Lyme Disease, depending on which doctor I see. The two illnesses have near identical symptoms: intense debilitating exhaustion, brain fog and a whole lot of other symptoms.
ZB: How exactly did you go about the process of finding the participants and then deciding on whose stories would be included?
RS: The day after my party where I had decided to compile the stories for this book, I whipped up a call for stories. I e-mailed the notice to friends and a few in e-mail discussion groups. It read:
That Takes Ovaries!
Seeking submissions of anything YOU have *ever* done—little or big—that was gutsy or audacious. It can be playful, serious, spontaneous, calculated, smart, sexy, and/or an example of leadership. Something that, when you think about it today, makes you nod your head with *pride,* or even semi-disbelief, and think, "Wow! I did that!"
Soon my e-mail in-box was full. Not only with cool, gutsy-gal submissions, but also with notes from women and men around the country saying they loved the idea of the book and asking when they could they buy it? Apparently, the phrase had struck a chord. When women got the e-notice they were so excited they promptly sent it to their girlfriends. My call for stories became a popular forwarding item. Before long I was seeing it sent back to me via a number of women's e-newsletters to which I subscribed but had not sent the notice. In the end, three hundred stories came in and thousands of women on the web considered, at least for a moment, their own bravery and brazenness. I choose the stories based on the diversity of the gutsy acts, diversity of ethnic, racial, cultural background, age, geographic location, etc.
ZB: Was this an overwhelming endeavor? How did you find the strength, especially with the struggle of your illnesses?
RS: It was overwhelming only because I was so sick all the time. I have no idea where I found the strength. Often, I did not find the strength and I worked on the book even while too sick to really work on it at all. And other times, I was unable to work on it for months and months at a time.
ZB: Will you talk about the illnesses you had to overcome while creating the book? How did the open mike version develop?
RS: Despite a devastating disability, I wrote this book and began an international Ovaries! open mike movement though having spent much of the past decade bedridden or housebound and I still am. It’s a very debilitating illness, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS) or Chronic Lyme Disease, depending on which doctor you talk to. When I got sick, I had to leave my career in international politics and crawl into bed, too weak to function. This went on for years, but I did not give up. I taught myself to be a writer, got a book contract with one of the largest publishers in the country and spent almost five years collecting stories, writing and publishing this book, all while being tethered to my bed. Often, I was so sick I could not function for days, weeks, even months at a time. I came close to quitting many times, especially when I developed a second disability, Repetitive Strain Injury. I could not hold a toothbrush or a telephone, let alone type. I could not type for almost a year the same year I was under contract to finish this book! Solution? I found 6 young women assistants and volunteers who came to my home to type with me, for me, as we sat together at the computer for 1-3 hours, until I was ready to collapse with exhaustion from my CFS and crawl back to bed. This is how That Takes Ovaries! was written. I still suffer from this same illness today, 17 years after contracting it. I came up with the idea of the community-based open mikes in part because I knew I could not do a usual author book tour.
ZB: Has this affected your perspective on real vulnerability and defenselessness as opposed to learned victimization and passivity in women?
RS: My illness makes everything hard because I'm always deeply, down-to-my-bones exhausted, and sleep does not make the exhaustion go away. That is where my real struggle is, with the illness I have. And it is true that when you are physically exhausted all the time, it does make you feel weaker or more vulnerable emotionally. Sometimes I see something that a woman with ovaries would do, and I just can't be bothered, I'm too sick and have to crawl into bed. I spend way too much time stuck in, or tethered to, my bed. We can all be bold, no matter if we are weak physically or emotionally, whether we learned it growing up in a sexist society or became that way from a debilitating illness. We all have opportunities to act boldly each and every day! That is how I see things.
ZB: Do you get frustrated by how much women are seen as the weaker sex or victims in our culture?
RS: I most certainly do not see women as victims but we do, however, live in a sexist society that portrays women as victims; in our mass media, in our TV shows, movies, etc, the victimization of women is made into entertainment. And it is hard not to internalize that message. That is what "internalized oppression" is: if you hear often enough that you are the weaker of the sexes, you begin to believe it.
ZB: Do you see overcoming the challenge of your disability as form of empowerment?
RS: In general, I think that in many cases disabilities can be a blessing in this respect: I have friends with disabilities who have told me this about their own disabilities and how those disabilities spurred them into activism and becoming disability rights activists. But in my case, I think I would have rather spent my time organizing women even more, instead of being bedridden and too sick to either write or organize.
ZB: Can you give examples of reactions to your book, both negative and positive?
RS: I get emails all the time from women who say that they found the stories in the book and play or shared at an open mike nights inspiring. That they have rediscovered their ovaries after reading the book. These emails come from girls as young as 14 and women as old as 60. The only negative comments I get are the questions about what if women have had their ovaries removed or are transgendered? I say that the book is not about literal ovaries, it is not about anatomy, it is about attitude.
ZB: Who was your target audience for the book?
RS: I hoped my book, the play and the open mike movement could add to those books and plays already coming out that are a platform for girls' vibrant voices and a celebration of womanly resilience. I envisioned a book, play and open mike movement that would excite women and men of all ages who want to see their sisters, mothers, grandmothers, aunts, and friends leading empowered lives; mothers and fathers who care about their daughters growing up self-assured and confident; and girls eager to be a part of the growing "girl power" movement. That Takes Ovaries! would be for everyone interested in challenging a culture still wrought with inequality and double standards, everyone hungry for unabashedly powerful females.
ZB: Do you have males reading the book or attending the open mike shows?
RS: Yes, men and boys attend all our events. Out of over 300 events to date, only one was women-only. We welcome men and boys because at our events, they can share stories (brag) about the ovaries in their lives, like their sisters, mothers and daughters. And they do. Men will get up and proudly talk about their singles mom's who raised them, their sisters who have graduated with honors from high school, etc. For many women, it is the first time they have hear a man publicly praise women's strength. This is a transformative thing for men and women to witness.
ZB: Have any boys contacted you, who don't identify with typical male characteristics, and told you their stories of overcoming, say, bias against effeminate males or gay males?
RS: Sometimes men get up at our events and instead of sharing about an ovary in their life, they share about their own bold acts, this is not what they are supposed to do, but we don't stop them from doing it. They sometimes talk about how they have been oppressed or hurt and how they have overcome it. I don't recall this particular topic coming up though (gay oppression). However, many gay men have told me how much they support our work at TTOvaries.
ZB: Are you often asked for advice on how to deal with certain situations by girls? Do you find you get equal inquiries from all generations?
RS: Interestingly enough, folks don't ask for advice a lot. Rather they tell me their stories of success and of standing up for themselves. Sometimes young women ask me about ‘how to be bold’ and I do sometimes cover that in my talk or lecture that I give when I go to campuses. One of my talks How To Lead a Bold Life included topics like, how to seek out role models, that any small act of bravery leads to bigger ones, make a decision to act through and in spite of your fears, come up with concrete steps you can take that lead to a bold life. An important issue is to ask what current laws have become outdated that may allow or worse enable abusive or harassing behavior by males towards women, which resulted in measures of retaliation or vigilantism by women. What laws should be re-evaluated and changed?
ZB: What new laws do you feel might help aid with creating a safer environment for women, whether it is in the education system or at the work place, etc?
RS: I think we need more laws and programs and policies that enable safe and easy access to birth control and abortion, free or cheap child care, free or cheap health care, more low-income housing, more awareness programs for men about sexual harassment and abuse. I am not sure we need new laws for all these things, but in short, women are still struggling for the right to live without violence, walk down the street at night & live without fear of being assaulted, to not be hit by our partner , beaten by our boyfriend, have equal representation in their political institutions and in businesses, receive equal pay for their work, to be able to enjoy the mass media (movies, comedy, music videos) without being bombarded with hyper sexualized images of women, or images that constantly portray women as victims. We need to be aware of how many women are mayors of cities? In the U.S. Senate? How many women own businesses? How many women are in leadership positions in the top corporations of our country, superintendents of schools, presidents of hospitals? How many women are running colleges? How many women are film directors? How many women are in truly equal relationships with men? Most are taking care of the home and children, working twice as much in the family as men do. Also, internationally, in many countries, the situation is much worse and many of these things do need to be addresses with laws and government enforced policies like how women are second-class citizens with little or no power and often no control over their lives, they have no access to condoms which can save their lives (HIV/AIDS), no access to birth control, no access to abortions, no ability/agency to say no to sex, acid attacks, FGM, honor-crime killings, rape as an instrument of war, forced marriages at very young ages, sexual slavery, forced prostitution
the list goes on..
ZB: How do you see this expression with the play and open mike night progressing? What would the ideal end results be?
RS: The end result we are after is the liberation of all females. TTO seeks the liberation of all women and girls, irrespective of social and economic status. It is a grand vision, but one we must envision and say out loud in order to strategize and actualize it. TTO wants every woman and girl to be free to live her life to her fullest potential without having to adhere to antiquated social norms that limit her in any way, and without having to live her life in fear of intimidation, violence or oppression. Girls are born self-assured and bold. It is not chromosomes that make many girls shy about speaking up in class, hesitant to dive into competitive sports, or tolerant of street harassment. It's not due to genetic makeup that women are less likely to run for political office, climb the corporate ladder, or attain equality, whether equal pay on the job or equal attention in the bedroom. It's not nature; it's nurture. Internalized social messages and conditioning by a sexist, often violent society are what contribute to any female suppressing her naturally confident, daring self and replacing it with less risk-taking, less space-taking behavior.
From girlhood, women are trained to step lightly, downplay their abilities and not express their needs, even though being assertive, drawing boundaries and speaking up are the skills that help women most, whether it's advancing her career or ensuring her physical safety. This has devastating consequences: Women are less likely to run for political office, rise to leadership positions in the business community and receive equal pay for equal work. One in three women will be physically or sexually abused in her lifetime. In the U.S., a woman is beaten every 15 seconds and one is raped every 90 seconds. Would this happen if women felt their power, spoke up and fought back? Not likely. The need for female empowerment is urgent. It's time to deprogram. It's time to reject all that keeps a woman quiet or unsure. What femininity needs is a boost of bravado. Fortunately, role models abound. Examples of resistance, bravery, and breaking-the-mold behavior can be found in every female. The book is a celebration of ourselves, girls and women speaking in their own words about their own bold actions. Sharing our true stories is inspiring because courage is contagious, both within a person and between people. We at TTO want these ripples to turn into a wave, a wave of personal and societal change.
ZB: Many of these events are fundraisers for human rights, fighting against abuse and oppression worldwide. Can you give some examples of what That Takes Ovaries has achieved?
RS: We have held over 300 events to date around the globe. Many events raise money, but not large sums of money. Often just a few hundred dollars, sometimes a few thousand dollars. Sometimes all that is raised are toiletries for a local battered women's shelter.
ZB: In your opinion, what is the single most courageous act a female can do for herself? How far should one go to accomplish this?
RS: She can stand up for herself and others if she is or others are being hurt, abused, discriminated against or somehow oppressed. That is the most courageous thing she can do. How far should one go to accomplish this? She must use her own judgment, but it is best if no one would be hurt in her process of standing up for herself and others, unless that person is hurting others and needs to be hurt in order to stop him from hurting others.
ZB: Will you describe some participants of your events, who've fully embraced the life of activism and made changes on either a small or large scale?
RS: We have had a number of women who have never organized any events before and after organizing a TTO event, they end up organizing other events for women's voices and women's causes. That is a delight to see!
ZB: How do you address gender stereotypes when talking about feminism and female empowerment?
RS: This is an important reason why I support the Trans, transgendered, movement and the rejection of all gender-based stereotypes; in fact, I call gender stereotypes gender straitjackets. They force boys and girls into rigid roles how they are supposed to behave. How limiting can you get? How can a woman or female identified person empower herself without using gender stereotypes? She can empower herself simply by standing up for herself and others, and not buying into any limits that are externally imposed and not buying into any limits that she may have internalized due to a sexist, racist, class-ist, able-ist, and ageist society.
ZB: For thousands of women around the world, your book is an act of heroism and through this work, you yourself are a hero(ine). Do you have any personal heroines of your own? Any strong women who inspired you before you created That Takes Ovaries?
RS: Every women and girl is my hero! Really, that is what TTO is all about: We are all role models for each other. There may be one area in my life in which I have not bought into the oppression, and for that reason I may be a role model for you in that area. But you may not have bought into the oppression in another area, and for that reason you are a role model for me in that area. But, specifically my personal role models in the fight for social change include Gloria Steinem, Barbara Jordan, Bella Abzug, Harriet Tubman, Shirley Chisholm, Fannie Lou Haymer, Cesar Chavez, Martin Luther King Jr., Gandhi, and of course my Grandma Claire, my Mom and Dad. There was also Sojourner Truth, the tall Black woman who spoke so dynamically about Black women's rights, especially in her "Ain't I a Woman" speech. There was Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton, the tireless pioneers and national organizers of the first wave of the women's movement, the one that won women the right to vote. There was the extraordinarily brave Harriet Tubman, a former slave who made numerous trips from the south to the north to help other Blacks gain their freedom using the underground railroad. And then there was the persistent Elizabeth Blackwell, the first American woman to get a medical degree. I think she applied to fifteen medical schools before she was finally accepted to one. All of these women fought hard for their rights, for all women's rights. None of these women took "no" for an answer. They were my role models.
ZB: What would be the farthest you'd personally go to right a wrong, in the name of equality?
RS: I have risked physical harm to right a wrong. That is, I have stood in between an angry, seemingly-violent man and the woman he was targeting. I did this once. And I have verbally stood up to bullies many times.
ZB: How do you define courage?
RS: I wrote this book and play, started an open mike movement, because courage is contagious and risk-taking is infectious. I wanted audiences to think, "Hey, if that woman can do something so outrageous, so courageous, then maybe so can I". Women and girls are transformed when they begin to reframe what it means to be courageous so that they now see the ways they are already acting courageously, take pride in being female, and get affirmation for being a female who acts boldly, step through fear to speak in public for the first time, step through fear to organize an event for the first time, men are transformed when they recognize women's strength and brag about it. They gain a deeper level of respect for females when they hear about female's hardships and ability to overcome them. There are different types of courage and boldness. Not all courage is in-your-face and political. There is a spectrum of types of courage, from loud and noisy and rambunctious to soft, quiet, steady tenaciousness. There are so many types of courage: Spontaneous Courage, Well Thought Out Courage, Individual Courage, Group Courage, Physical Courage, Emotional Courage, Standing up for yourself Courage, Helping Others Courage. Courage has a transformative effect!
Conducted in 2003